Whitefield 1st V Stute 1st

Good clean hard fought match going right down to the wire on a black ball decider in the final frame with W/field just sneaking it.
All 6 frames were close with nobody winning by more than 20.
Two big handicap starts for W/field probably swung it for us with Nick coming back strong against Jim Fallon only to miss a half chance black and gift it to Jim. Which left a thrilling final frame which Dave Jeffreys looked like winning with a good brown blue & pink and landing perfect on the black only to have a sudden rush of blood and miss with a bigger snatch than Jordan. Ant then duely obliged and potted a nice black to win the match.
Good wins for Kev v Westie, Steve v Mark Moses, Mark Matulka v Swee & Chris Heywood (39 break) v Maggers

P.S. I hope the Stute 2nd didnt win or I dont think big Steve will be impressed at being cup tied by playing for 1st team. And winning his game as well :(

Well done Steve lad, but you're still dropped for Thursday :D

Maggers they did win and I am cup tied, but guess what? when I got back to the club and informed King David I had won he duely told me I wouldnt be playing again because reidy would be back so therefore I stitched myself up and was only going to get 1 game in the competition.

It wont happen again and King David can whistle, I think it may be time I looked for a club that would appreciate a player in their first team because by the looks of things the 2nd Div is going to fold next year and our first team is a closed shop.

Mark my words though King David, having a closed shop for the Stuts first team will come back to haunt you one day.

Most of the lads on our first team are decent lads and no offence to any of them but you have to look at whats happened at the libs to see how things change when you have decent players wanting to play snooker and billiards.

Thats my rant over

Steve

No point in having a rant pal, I tried that a few days ago and someone who will remain nameless (who cant beat me by the way!) said something nasty !

If the Stute want a first team closed shop, then let them do that and i dont mean that in an arrogant way ! because anyone in this league is only as good as their last performance(s). There isnt competition for places, which in time will cause issues, people move on etc. There hasnt been much movement in the league this past few years, maybe all teams (who want to be competitive) need to look at strengthening their sides. I dont particularly know of any other club who plays the same 6 week in week out, in our club 2 games lost and your dropped and it might of been a loss on the black to Kev or Ronnie etc, but you are still dropped, it makes you try harder when your back in.

The other side of the coin is how many of each first teams squad should be in the first team? you are in the unfortunate position where most of the first team players at the Stute are better players than the like of you and I, but on the night no-one in the league is unbeatable. The difference with the Stute is again most of the players they are good (consistently).

Thats my rant too, someone will probably post some S***e about my rant but like I give a flying ++++

No offence to the older viewers for the language used.... Maggers, Ronnie, Tom ...haha

joe ! shush you should be off -150 hahaha..
personally steve if you need to progress further mate you should move to another club as you have a great chance in getting into other 1st teams in the league...
the only way you gonna get a game for the church steve me old mucker is if GOD FORBID someone has a nasty turn or summat there is no sign of squad rotation which is down to the captain etc etc, we have 3 subs and i have a major headache picking the sides as ronnie hasnt won a game i think yet we all know he would walk into ANY TEAM and play every week !!!!!!.
ron has admitted himself that it makes him try harder knowing that if you dont win you wont be playing because there are people itching to play, we are not professionals or we would be on t.v and its all a laugh and good fun at the end of the day.
MY ADVICE TO YOU MATE CALL ME ILL BE YOUR AGENT AND GET YOU A NEW CLUB, MY CUT IS 20 %
LOVE MBM

20% of nothing is nothing MBM!!! didnt you use to work for a bank? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Is there a general level of apathy about the league and people just won't bother next season then or is it the case that if someone came along with a fresh approach to it then everyone would embrace the cahnges and give it a go?

I've mentioned that in the bowling league, clubs are fined when delegates don't show for league meetings but was told that it couldn't happen in the snooker league because nobody gave a toss and would simply drop out of the league if you tried.

My problem is that although there are a few protagonists from a few clubs on here, there is no general feeling of anything but perpetuating the status quo with the odd grumble and tweak here and there. Is that all that the league needs, or do people believe something more radical is needed in terms of a semi-informal get together of interested parties, a bit of a brainstorm and a solid proposal put together as to the league's future?

good luck to the stute 1st team...they set a standard for all of us to follow...saying they are a closed shop smacks of jealousy...there has always been a team at snooker that win the trophies because they are the best team...they practice throughout the week and deserve it...the libs had a good 5 year period and whitefield were the top team for a couple of years before that...so stop griping and get on with it....as far as the league goes what would happen if dd retired... .....i dont see anyone even willing to do anything for this league

Obviously you don't read the thread properly nor know the goings on at the Stute, hurricane.

Steve plays for the first team, wins against a decent Whitefield Cons player in Mark Moses, but is immediately dropped without a thanks, kiss my arse or any view as to why John should walk straight back in the first team. Dave Darlington's argument has always been that those are the best six and they stay in regardless of form, hence the closed shop, NOT jealousy. John Thompson and I have been down the same route on the billiards side so I know the score. I didn't move to Heaton Park through bitterness or anything, I moved to play billiards regularly, something that was in doubt in the summer and I wanted a chance to practice on the tables before the season started.

Kudos to the Libs for going down the winner stays on route - it gives those decent second teamers a chance to get a taste of first division standard and a thirst to play it again; if they lose then prove themselves again in the seconds, they have another chance. Nobody has the right to a place in the team - they earn it through results and just because of who it is, why shouldn't they be dropped if they lose three on the bounce?

David,

A few points I would like to make:

1, when you read properly and understand the situation then make a valid comment

2, If King David retired would the league fold - NO i dont think so

3, this website is just one example of people in this league who care and want to see it progress.

4, The closed shop is as it states, I was told I wouldnt be in the team for the next round despite giving Mark Moses 6 start and winning.

5, Kevin Roles has lost his last 3 billiards games, Lee Marson has won 3 of 4 who should be picked next week?

6, Why arent you in the first team anymore? is it because the cons have better players that have taken your place and you were DROPPED

7, It isnt about jealousy at all and only a narrow minded fool would see that, its about fairness and a will to do better and challenge the best.

In future read the post properly before you make pathetic comments like that and fully understand the situation.

Av It (lol)

yes its always a good debating point....if i had to choose iam afraid that i would drop steve and put my best 6 out the week later....this is because like when we had a good team at pres cons for nearly 20 years...it is a bit ruthless but looking at the season over a 10 month period i would choose my best 6 and let them play every week even if someone lost 3 on the trot provided they were still practicing and had no other distractions ie domestic or illness.....i agree steve thomo lee and others too good for second team but like joe remembers he couldnt keep a regular place in prescons team so went to carlton....its all a matter of opinion

There's a big difference between not being able to keep a regular place because you're, for want of a better phrase, borderline good enough, and only being called upon when the top six aren't available. Joe had his chance, didn't take it perhaps, but got another chance. Thommo would hold his own in the first division, particularly at billiards, so too Steve at snooker.

It's not about being too good for the second team, it's about getting a chance to earn a place in the first team. The holy grail for most ambitious players at any club is to establish themselves as a first team player who is winning most weeks. If there's no route to the first team to attempt that, why bother sticking around? The Stute second team proved that it can compete by doing the quadruple a couple of years ago, beating three first division teams to lift the billiards ko cup.

Promotion and relegation is one option or indeed combining the two billiards divisions into one. Again, all reasonable suggestions, but a sensible "coffee evening" discussion would be better to bat around ideas and talk them over, outling all the pros and cons of each.

well ive seen some good snooker teams ruined by bickering from the reserves...it needs a strong captain...and if you refer to the stute i have seen ...nick dave jeff...kevin chris john and sui in action this season and to me theres no arguement about dropping any of them....playing one frame is hard enouigh without the addedpressure of being dropped if you lose....john bailey stated the point at the libs before he left....say you are 19 behind with blue pink and black left on the table and the match is already won...do you pot them and lose by one point to stay in the team next week or do you try a snooker and end up losing by 37 points.. changing the team every week is not a good idea...tell me who you think are the best 6 at the stute as for the rest we need a couple at prescons 1st team

Dave

Before this turns personal, The only reason i left cons for the carlton is because of 1st team bickering at Prestwich Cons... There is only really 1 first team snooker player left at the Cons(from when i was there) which is Bob Capron, who is a proper nice fella. I am talking the days of Billy , Myers, Lorenzini and Norman Hewson and yourself, I regularly kept a first team place and was always off -10 to -14. You left the carlton due to a fall out(unless i am mistaken, or lack of 1st team action) and regularly criticised the team ON HERE after you left. I am not falling out with you as we have always got on well, and always played a good match, but as someone else mentioned a few threads ago, facts are facts and need to be right .


Joe

neither me or bob capron have played for the carlton....yet....yes i know what you mean joe...the libs as john bailey said was different because if you do get dropped..fair enough...but they wont let you play for the second team...last week for example both big ronnie and tom tully were on the bench..in my opinion they should have played for the second team,,,so thats a different discussion...and if you remember at the cons we also had the best player in bury steve higton and the best player in salford tony logan tremendous at his best...but they still lost frames...at present there are 3 left bob capron alan conchie and old me

There's a difference between best on paper and best on form - who would have seriously backed Marco Fu to beat Ronnie O'Sullivan the other week? A good captain won't just assess the scores if you're getting beat, but take into consideration how you've played, how you're playing in practice, if you're practicing, etc.

The first choice six is the strongest six on paper, but given I beat Kev at billiards and Reidy at snooker in consecutive weeks this season, then paper's all it is. Yes, they will win the majority of their games, but does that make them immune to the axe? Well yes, in this case it does, but obviously it shouldn't if Steve has come in, played well and won and John's lost his previous couple of matches and not played well. Still, I'm not playing for them now and they don't need their team selection dragging out on here - as Joe and Steve have said, you've not played for the Stute so don't appreciate the set up there to the same degree as Steve and myself.

Just to make something else clear, the lads in the first team are a great bunch and I do miss everyone, but if they aren't performing, why not drop them? Surely that gives them an incentive to try harder next time out to stay in the side? If their ego is too big to allow them to play for the second team then they play for themselves and not the club that they have joined.

i played as a young lad for clubs in manchester and swinton many moons ago where there was similar frustrations...seems 2 choices either get in the first team win and go ballistic if your dropped or leave and play elsewhere,,,as you said in 2 years the stute lads may have gone..perhaps its time MR AVIT sorted it out ...send him to the stute with his bulldozer

It's not about the lads clearing off though, I'd rather they didn't.
I'd rather be playing against their standard each week than not.

What would be better is if it were a level playing field - certainly why drop a winner? Indeed, and sorry for referring back to it, but in the bowls league, John, having lost his last snooker match, would not be allowed to be drop at the expense of Steve, only at the expense of one of the losers.

Av It has been conspicuous by his absence - perhaps he gave the game away a bit too much last season and wants to keep a low profile. Was Deeply getting too close, was Rob throwing red herrings around, was Magger's shave too close? Who knows, but I think he might have a bit to say in this topic if he's still around.

The reason the lib's doesn't employ the "if your dropped from the 1st team you play for the 2nd team" attitude is coz we dont want to encourage the elitist attitude. Every player for the libs be it 1st or 2nd team would love to play every week and im sure thats the same in every snooker club not just in our league but up and down the country. I personally dont agree with if you put a dropped first team player in the second team then thats one 2nd team player ( who probably turns up every week win or lose ) deprieved of a game. I wouldn't like it and am sure you wouldn't like it either.

The stute does it there way and with the results and trophies they ve amassed over the last few years speaks for itself, As for whether its right or wrong is all down to personal opinion.

At the end of the day they set the bar and its up to everyone else to match them.

Not me chief :)

Is that another red herring? hahaha

Seriously, selection policies are a club thing - whatever the club opts for, particularly the first team, like it or lump it. As we've seen historically, various people have taken both routes. The Stute has won so much in the last few years because man-for-man, they've had the best overall 12 players each week, simple as that. However, what, as second team captain, I didn't have, was the ability to call on Dave Darlington as a regular second team player, which would have (probably) improved the second team.

That obviously contradicts your view, Rob, as i believe that the best 12 players available for selection that week should play. I play for a club, not a team and I'll play for who I am selected to play for.

i would have to disagree with you there mark, if the libs picked its best 12 players week in week out, 2nd division wise we would have 3 or 4 players more than capable of playing and doing so in the first division playin in the 2nd division an there wouldn't have been so much 2nd division "domination" from the stute. ( in my opinion )

but like you say its the clubs individual policy and thats not the way we do it at the libs.

Result from last Tuesday at Unsworth South

Lit the touch paper their Maggers and stood back ;)

P.S. I hope the Stute 2nd didnt win or I dont think big Steve will be impressed at being cup tied by playing for 1st team. And winning his game as well

First off Steve you played well for us in the cup and won giving a start to a first team player which in it's self proves you are good enough to play first team snooker (Nobody's arguing that point with you) This is about DD's comment regarding being dropped if the Stute first had all it's regular players available for it's next match IF we won, and wanting a first team place, I've listened to many a lively discussion between you two in the club and you and i both know he will not change his mind at THIS present time about how he wants to run the first team, after all he is the captain, as Dave wright pointed out on a post ,as captain you make decisions not to be popular and please everybody but to get results.
Comments like this Steve

Mark my words though King David, having a closed shop for the Stutes first team will come back to haunt you one day.

are not helpful in trying to change the situation and it all but says you are looking forward to your fist teams demise in some way

Joe the Carlton's system of lose two and you are out is a fair one but was one of the reasons for me moving on, the last season i played for you i only had i think two games in the second half of that season because their were too many people signed on in my opinion i think it was ten may be eleven you could lose four games and win three and still be in the team, the point I'm making here is the situation was not going to change just to please me so i moved on with no hard feelings apart from being called a scumbag everytime i return.

Who can't beat you Joe i want to stir it a little.

Mark i just want to address this comment

If their ego is too big to allow them to play for the second team then they play for themselves and not the club that they have joined.

Whose ego are you talking about here, i am 100% sure if the second team was short of a player and a first team player was eligable to play and was'nt playing in a first team match on that night he WOULD play for the second team.
And yes they are a good set of lads with no airs and graces about them.

The bottom line to all this is yes steve was hard done to by DD being told he would not play if his usuall six players were available, the Stute first team selection policy and how the team is run has go bugger all to do with you lot.
Thats my rant over, no offence intended












:P :lol: :lol: :lol:

Not at all Nick thats the last thing I would like to see. It is healthy to debate and not get personal, you should have been there Thursday night it was lively and I believe D Jeffries did his usual pointy finger act at Lee before he went home. That finger will suffer one day when its pointed at the wrong person - in my oppinion that is lmao

The Stute first team selection policy obviously affects the Stute second team Nick. It affected me in terms of my billiards ambitions as it does Steve with his snooker ambitions and probably Thommo in both.
Let's use you as an example:
Say you lose three on the trot and are playing crap, Steve has won three on the trot for the seconds, knocking in a couple of 40 breaks on the way. Would DD change it? If not, why not? Surely an easier game in the seconds for you would rebuild your confidence a little while rewarding Steve for his efforts?

As for the ego comment, it was aimed at nobody in particular - it was a general comment about anyone who felt playing for the second team was below them whichever club they played for; I'm not saying for an instant that anyone would refuse, it was purely a hypothetical situation.

i understand your fustrations steve but you have to remember this is a very old snooker and billiards league and changes will not happen over night, one giant step forward is this web site mark has set up for everyone so debates like this can take place B) B)

Mark you car'nt have it both ways , you give a good example heres mine.
A couple of seasons ago your team won the lot 2nd division snooker and billiards titles and won both cups a great achievement how would your players have reacted if on both cup finals and lets say the last games of the season for billiards or snooker you decided to drop players because their form was not as good as lets say kevin and chris to give your self a better chance of winning. Not one player from the first team played a game for you
that season which was right 2nd and 1st teams are seperate, how would you go on in competitions, look whats happened reguarding steve, for me you should play for one team and if your a player short then tough .
If i play one game for the second team and they go on to win the league would i pick a trophy up on presentation night, i dont think so, the reason being i would feel a fraud


B) B)

So you're suggesting that the teams/squads get picked at the start of the season and that's it?

Yes i am, just my opinion mind you( and i am not looking to change things) and like the North M/cr snooker league you have a six week window from the begining of the season for any transfers or new signings then thats it, you play the full season with what players you have, thats no different than the way you pick cup teams in this league apart from new signings and the tranfers bit, if i'm not mistaken B) B)

Ohh wow boys you have all been busy whilst I have been away, give me an hour to have some bedtime reading this looks interesting

:ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r:

"Av It"

So, Av It, while you're here, who are your tips for each title and the two KO cups? The Stute currently has a stranglehold on the four league break awards too - do you see that changing?

big ron played fot the libs 2nd team on thursday and he won !!!!
nice job ronnie.

Be Nice Mr Av It please

Never thought it would go off with such a bang Nick ;)